Where's the line?

[deadinside]

If this is not allowed or may come across as negative to addicts then PLEASE delete it and my apologies. I'm just curious at where the line is for something becoming porn. For a single person, is any visual of a naked female considered porn? How about a married man/woman? Is a married man allowed to take pictures of his spouse and look at them? How about video taping themselves? If it should be allowed, how is that different for the brain than if it's different people? Where is the line for something becoming porn? Does it even have to be naked if it stimulates someone the same way? There's all kinds of different views on sexuality.
How about rated R movies? Showtime? PG-13? PG? Music videos? I'm sure Britney Spears dancing around in her little catholic school girl outfit is just as arousing to some as hard core porn is to others. I'm sincerely curious what people think on this. 

[IGC Moderator]

[quote author=deadinside link=topic=24.msg58#msg58 date=1236842646]
If this is not allowed or may come across as negative to addicts then PLEASE delete it and my apologies. I'm just curious at where the line is for something becoming porn. For a single person, is any visual of a naked female considered porn? How about a married man/woman? Is a married man allowed to take pictures of his spouse and look at them? How about video taping themselves? If it should be allowed, how is that different for the brain than if it's different people? Where is the line for something becoming porn? Does it even have to be naked if it stimulates someone the same way? There's all kinds of different views on sexuality.
How about rated R movies? Showtime? PG-13? PG? Music videos? I'm sure Britney Spears dancing around in her little catholic school girl outfit is just as arousing to some as hard core porn is to others. I'm sincerely curious what people think on this. 
[/quote]

Your comment definately poses some good questions. First of all a couple of general assumptions we make on this forum as it's purpose is to help addicts.
1. Pornography should be avoided. There may be a few who see an image and do not become addicted. There may be some who see an image and later in life when stress, anger, or loneliness are too much...they become addicted. There are those who see one image and are hooked. The purpose here is to encourage, educate, and discuss how addicts can find sobriety, help loved ones affected, and/or avoid addiction altogether.
2. The debates are and can be numerous in this field; however, questions and information are ok as long as they are not for the purpose of justifying the use of pornography.   

Having said that your questions are fine. One  definition of porn may be images (other than seeing ones spouse) that trigger intimate feelings. This can mean TV, PG-13, etc... It can meaning walking in the mall. Many Innergold clients are "triggered" very strongly by daily occurrences. Innergold teaches mindfulness and awareness of daily circumstances and how to live life amongst them without constantly "giving in" to these triggers. Life is kind of like learning to walk in a mine field without stepping on those mines.

As far as marriage goes and what is and is not permissible, that is not the point of this forum. Just one thought on the topic. Why would one EVER be drawn to video tape or photograph themselves and or their spouse? Where did the idea come from? Ideas do not come from thin air but rather from experiences and having learned them. It is likely that the ideas originated or were communicated by a second party directly linked at some point to pornography and its elements.

Another thought regarding ones spouse. If one has never been introduced to or seen pornography, imagine the element of "oneness" in that relationship. Imagine never having seen another naked body. Would expectations and ideals be different? Even 50 years ago, this was more common than not. Now days most humans have seen "R" rated porn or worse before marriage. Many men have viewed much and harder pornography before marriage. Just some food for thought.

As long as posts in these forums do not encourage pornography as acceptable or justified, they are allowed. Some debate is good.

[deadinside]

[quote author=IGC Moderator link=topic=24.msg59#msg59 date=1236879428]
Why would one EVER be drawn to video tape or photograph themselves and or their spouse? Where did the idea come from? Ideas do not come from thin air but rather from experiences and having learned them. It is likely that the ideas originated or were communicated by a second party directly linked at some point to pornography and its elements.
[/quote]

What came first, the chicken or the egg?  To me that fits this arguement perfectly. Where was the first pornographic thought from? Part of my comments are all based around just the philosophical aspects. To me, it's human nature to want variety. There are obviously many forms of variety. Who is to say what is wrong or right? Again, at what point does something become pornographic? In expanding just on that one question, it seems from your response that you take the conservative approach to it and I would agree. It really does come down to the mind. I also see it as things that can keep a marriage together. If you were told to eat the same thing for every meal for the rest of your life, many would not want to do that. Especially if you are constantly surrounded by other meals. In continuing the analogy, say you wanted to spice up your meal with different things each day. Maybe some salt and pepper one day, or sweet and sour the next. Still the same meal, but different flavor. How does one come up with these different ideas on how to prepare food? Oh yeah. The food network. ^_^ I can say something from my own experience, I'd be very bored with that first meal if I didn't figure out how to best prepare it. Now I have my favorite methods. Not something I would ever have come up with on my own, but it's made my ...analogy ending...marriage better. A saying I like is the opposite of what I think your program goes on. Not saying either is wrong though, just what I like. It doesn't matter where you get your appetite as long as you eat at home. That does not get into the whole trigger thing you mention, but feeds into that urge so obviously not something you'd preech.

So getting back to the main topic, what is pornography? It appears to boil down to anything. There is no line. If someone asks you, "When was the last time you slipped and viewed pornography?" then the correct answer is very misleading since there is no line to judge this by. That is what I'm getting at. You can't avoid it. The trigger will be just about anything. For a muslem, it could be as simlpe as a wrist or ankle. It's a complete personal thing in every aspect of it..by definition. I can close my eyes and view any sort of thing my imagination can come up with. Is my brain shrinking? Does the effect of so called pornography that was done in the study have any difference than the pervert that watches the kids playground all day long? I would think the answer should be no, but different study someone may do someday. How about someone's brain shrinking that thinks about these things all happening with their one true love that they have only ever seen and can't imagine wanting to see anyone else? Does the brain know the difference between one person and the next?

[IGC Moderator]

Good points. Pornography can mean many things and can act as a triggers in different ways to different people. Some clients are intensely triggered by things that other men would not be.  For example...walking into a store where a woman is dressed in revealing clothing. Most men will notice, some may not even be phased more than just a quick second...others may be intensely triggered, dwell, and start desiring something more intense.

So yes...we take a more conservative approach teaching clients to be mindful and aware. To accept each trigger for what it is...not fighting it but acknowledging it, and learning to move on without dwelling. For example here is the kind of processing we teach clients to do..."Wow that was a nice looking woman. Definitely attractive. Thanks "brain" for reminding me that I am normal. Now I will move on and not dwell on what I just saw."

I know it is easier said than done but over time and with repetition Innergold clients learn to live in what we call the "wise mind."  Not fighting but accepting and moving on.

[Humilis]

Interesting thoughts. It was once explained to me that pornography is anything that makes one sexually stimulated in a manner outside of the bonds of marriage. In this sense it is many things to many people. It is up to you to decide, but if it takes over your time, you dwell on it, and you look to it for satisfaction then it may be your porn.  I guess it comes down to your relationship with your god, yourself, and your spouse. If there is no god and you don't mind it, then what does it do to your wife? Whether it be at home or not is a poor argument to say the least, using your own various analogies to justify the normallicy of porn then I could make and analogy that as long as I am only doing drugs or killing people at home then it's not wrong, right? Works for me. I feel good about that. See what I mean, it doesn't hold up. Your argument that viewing porn is the same as eating doesn't hold up either for me. If we simplify things down to the basic requirements of existence, what the mind really needs, then all you need is food, shelter, and water. Sex is not needed for survival, thus niether is porn. A different meal each day is a luxury that we have, but everyone does not, and to them, rice and beans everyday is normal. I guess it all comes down to what you want to believe and the amount of control you would like to have over your body/life. You must do those things necessary to survive, the rest are luxuries you choose for yourself in your own situations. Is pornography so important to you that you must hurt your wife to view it, because you think it is normal and she thinks it is not. For me personally its something that I am learning to live without and realizing that I have more control over my thoughts and actions then ever before. I know I just rambled out a whole bunch of stuff, hopefully it makes sense, if not, well it was good for me to express my feelings anyways.

[IGC Moderator]

Humilis... You also bring up some interesting points. The limbic part of our brains (midbrain) is where instinctive and survival tenancies are stored. Eating, drinking, breathing, surviving. Sex is also part of the limbic system. That is why when one continues giving into pornography it becomes almost instinctive. Clients often say things like, "I feel like 2 different people. One part of me says to stop and that I shouldn't do this but then I find myself having slipped again."

The instinct of sex is natural and good. Without it, the world would likely cease to exist as procreation would stop. On the other hand pornography is an unnatural twist on this natural desire. That is where the issues take place. Taking some so vital and elemental to survival and twisting and augmenting in unrealistic and unnatural ways.

So although sex is not necessary in the same way that air, food, and water in a daily survival way...it is linked to the same instinctive and survival part of the brain. That is why if unused our brains can literally become rewired where our frontal cortex or logical part of the brain does not function in its proper state. Hence the state where addicts claim they slip and give in despite claiming they don't want to. This is where treatment and re-training the brain are necessary to re-teach the brain how to survive in natural ways.

That is why the argument of "moderation" cannot generally hold up, becuase moderation is usually short-term for most people. Eventually moderation gives way to a little more, then a little more, etc... Not always but it is very common.

[Humilis]

Thanks for correcting me, I knew this I just don't know how to word what I want to say, probably have some missing links in my frontal lobe! I was meaning that pornography was not necessary so it can't be compared to needing food.  I should clarify that better. Thanks!

[deadinside]

You both bring up interesting aspects. 
Humilis, you are thinking I'm trying to justify something and I'm not. I'm asking the question of what is porn. It will be different for every person, but society only looks at certain things as actually wrong. The difference in the examples you put is that they do hurt others. You are comparing murder in your house with eating. Completely different. Eating is a self inflicted thing. Murder is now involving someone else. Doesn't even make sense.

IGC Moderator, your comments are very interesting and I agree with most. Sex is a natural instinct. As you say, we'd likely go extinct without it. Thus anything you put on it is basically a societal thing. Still not justifying, but looking at it from a philosophical aspect. If you bring god into ANYTHING then whatever you decide to believe in is now the law. Take any religion and that is now the one and only correct way. There's hundreds of different religions that will all say different things. So take god out and what do you have? It really makes you think differently about things. Oh wait, I don't mean think differently, but actually THINK, not follow. God seems to give many people reason and direction they can't seem to get on their own so good for them. Whatever makes you happy and be good as a person. I'm an agnostic humanist. I believe in being a good person and don't really believe one way or the other about a higher being. Now if you want to get into being a good person, it's all relative. Society often decides what is good. It will be different from one country to the next, but there are some general ideas that should always be there. Kindness, no stealing, murder, etc.

Then you say that pornography is unnatural. I disagree there. Look at man in his basic humanistic state. You can't tell me there's no porn going on there. The biggest strongest smartest man is basically king. They would often have many women, etc. Whatever they desired and could think of. Basically living out porn in the definition we described above with the conservative rules. When it comes to sexuality, I think it's a completely personal thing. Some would say that homosexuality is completely unnatural. Others say heterosexuality is unnatural. It's a basic instinct and with that comes complete animal instinct and each person will be different. Every person will have different levels of drive and desire. Society makes the guy that is too high or too low on that scale as wrong. I don't think either is wrong. Where it becomes wrong is when it invades on someone else's freedoms. Just my opinion. Within that you can fit a marriage. Then there's 2 people that should be part of that. So in that I agree that if the partner doesn't agree then either change partners or try and respect that choice. The latter is my decision.

[deadinside]

I'll bring up a recent episode of "House". They had a patient that was a good outstanding citizen. Good husband who's wife and daughter loved him. ALways tried to do the right thing.
I forget what they say caused his problem, chemical or physical, but it was like the liar liar in a way of not being able to control what he said and said exactly what he was thinking in that moment. As you may be able to imagine, he did not come out looking like the outstanding husband he had always worked hard to be. So an illness that was only a couple days suddenly put his marriage at risk because he said what he thought without being able to use the "trigger" that you teach. He could have easily been a user of this process, but now he was not able to use his freedom of choice to become the better man.
Sure it's just a show, but just an example. Is someone who controls his actions, but may think things they never do a bad person? My wife was watching it with me and completely agreed with the wife in the show and said he was not a good man and she'd divorce him. SO take that as you will, but I for one disagree. He was trying to become more than he was naturally. Maybe women just aren't that way or maybe she just has to say that to be politically correct, but I still disagree. I would put a person's actions way above their thoughts. I would venture to guess that 95% or more of all men think just like the guy in the show. Some say it and are pigs. Most hide it or try and control it. I think very few if any just don't think it to begin with. I think it's part of your natural make up.

[IGC Moderator]

We definately all have varying belief systems. The Innergold program and purpose is to help Pornography and Sex addicts find Hope, Confidence, and Long-term Sobriety.  No 2 people are going to arrive at that point in exactly the same way. 

For the sake of my previous comments regarding porn being unnatural I would clarify that as the images, internet, and video side done for profit and/or exploitation. Also, regarding what may or may not be porn hundreds of years ago...we focus on the present and comparing porn today with anything of the past is irrelevant. We are in today and have no control or influence over the past. Comparisons can certainly be attempted for educational reasons but in regards to recovery...not going to help.

There are, as previously stated, many other forms that can be considered porn like a tight fitting outfit etc... For the sake of "unnatural"... acting and profiting help define unnatural things. Interesting how some men try to justify their addictions by seeking places and locations that appear to be more natural to justify behavior. e.g...a beach, clubs, and some even go to extremes like peeping Toms. Our brains are truly complex and love to justify once addicted.  Avoiding a magazine, video, or Internet is possible...even for an addict once taught how to avoid. Avoiding walking down the street and being triggered is generally not avoidable. That would help define what we at Innergold consider unnatural.

Mot addicts go through cycles and levels of triggers. Natural occurrences like seeing a beautiful woman walking down the street can lead to seeking unnatural elements of porn...that is if the addict does not process each trigger properly.

[becomingsober]

During my addiction and recovery I can attest to the "different forms of porn."  After being sober for quite some time it gets "easier" to focus and not dwell on triggers. On the same note there are difficult days where out of nowhere I feel like I am being barraged by triggers.  At the store, driving, Television, etc... So for me porn is anything that can trigger my system if left unchecked.  By trigger I mean feelings that might drive me to want to seek out something more "strong" from a porn perspective. Porn can mean so many different things to so many different people but I sure am one who tries not to justify "anything" as that is what quickly leads down to the road of relapse.

Before I got help, I was constantly triggered. A constant battle trying to stay on top of things. It was a huge fight every day. It was almost like I was fighting as long as I could until the next major slip. Now I look at things entirely different. I process things different. Yes, I still am triggered but rather than a fight it is more of an acceptance and then surrendering each trigger instead of the fight. 

[Humilis]

Deadinside,

I think you have really thought this out and found what works for you. I hope that what you believe brings you peace and joy in life. I hope that you and your wife can feel at ease with each other and your actions. I'm not being sarcastic, you have obviously put a lot of effort into this. Pornography is different for each person, standards are different for each person, and each person must find what works best for them. Personally, I strive to keep clean thoughts, be 100% loyal to my wife, my self, and my God. This is what works for me. I find greater peace this way. I feel more confident in my daily tasks and I am able to better serve others when I am sober. This is where I find my joy. Good look with all that you do.

[WillPower]

Thank you for such an interesting post Deadinside. I very much appreciated the objectivity with which you raised the points. I had the same question and was also very confused as to what constitutes "pornography". I've also given it some thought and have drawn certain conclusions which I would like to share. Please keep in mind that I am only sharing my opinion, I am by no means claiming to provide “the answer” and am delighted for you all to point out problems with my conclusions. Hopefully this will help me refine my understanding, or if necessary, dispose of it altogether.

I think pornography is often defined as something visual that creates an extramarital sexual response. However as that can be just about anything I don't think it's a useful definition. Therefore I consider "pornography" to be more specifically anything visual (even imagined) that creates a response to the degree of affecting the balance between the limbic and logical parts of the brain. That level of sexual stimulation whether caused by extremes in content or consumption is dangerous because it can become a threat to our survival (as demonstrated in Olds experiment on the mice). That's why pornography is inherently bad, I don't believe there is such a thing as “good” or “acceptable” pornography.

I think therefore the difference between what we could call “pornography” and merely imagery that illicits a simple sexual response could be illustrated by the difference between a medium/hard drug and a mild one. Coffee for example is technically a drug, and has the potential to have negative effects, but it's accepted as being so mild it generally won’t to do any great damage to our body unless consumed in higher quantities. One cup of coffee a day is not enough to upset the balance of a normal, healthy physical body. If taken in large doses however, by consumption alone, systemic levels of the drug can become so high that the balance is lost and the body becomes overwhelmed. Most people of course, don’t generally have this problem because such a high level of consumption is not usually practical or desired, though not to say impossible. On the other end of the scale however, heroin is so powerful a drug that it takes very little consumption to drastically alter the brain chemistry and ruin the limbic/logic balance very quickly. So using that analogy I think something becomes “pornographic” when either by content or consumption it affects the normal functioning of the logical mind and gives undue power to the limbic mind. As far as drugs are concerned, these would be considered as “medium/hard” and are generally banned due to their adverse health risks.

For clarification purposes I made a chart to illustrate what I mean. “Pornography” according to my definition, exists in the Medium and Dangerous Effect part of the table:


Sexually stimulating imagery
Potency             Consumption            Effect
Low                    Low                        Safe (Addiction free)
High                    Low                        Medium (can lead to addiction)
Low                    High                        Medium (can lead to addiction)
High                    High                        Dangerous (Addiction)


Definitions (rule of thumb)
Low Potency - Imagery up to and including tight-fitting & scanty clothing.
Low Consumption - Viewed continuously for up to 30 seconds
Medium-High Potency - Anything more revealing than tight-fitting and scanty clothing
Medium-High Consumption - Anything more than 30 seconds.






I know it could look like I’m getting a bit carried away with my definitions here and it is very subjectve, but they really are meant as a rough guide, a basis on which to build. I think the general principles are there. As humans, it is perfectly normal to have sexual desires and receive a sexual response to an image of a sexual nature. We can be happy to have this function as it is linked to both having life and enjoying it. The danger lies in allowing that level of sexual response to be so extreme that we can no longer control it, but it controls us. Those who, like myself, have slipped into addiction, must work very hard to build the logical mind to have the power where it can once regain control. As I understand it, this comes about by consistently reducing both the content and consumption of sexual imagery. And for addicts like me, a service like Innergold that provides the tools to achieve this is invaluable beyond words.

Please feel free to point out any flaws my explanation as I have no interest in being right and every interest in knowing what is right.

[recovered]

willpower, i think you have a pretty good grasp on what is pornography. i do want to point out one thing. sexuality is natural so even allowing our minds to view, quote unquote, soft porn is not safe. this is the line of bull that was fed to us in the 70's and gradually more and more or should i say less and less clothing was seen on ads. it always start with first viewing victoria secret and such magazines and the next thing i knew, i was wanting something a little more to get me my, "high".

[WillPower]

thanks for your comment recovered!

I agree entirely and did also state that viewing any kind of porn is bad. I was making the point though that I think an image being pornographic can occur from the beholder "viewing" it, as opposed to just "seeing" it. I think "seeing" a female in underwear does not come under the realm of porn, whereas "viewing" her would, purely on the basis of consumption (i.e. quantity). For the purposes of my defintion I created the parameter of what constitutes "viewing" as being over 30 seconds, and "seeing" as under 30 seconds, maybe this needs adjusting. In principle however, I don't think a healthy, normal person runs any risk from just "seeing" the opposite sex in underwear (thus the "Low Potency/Low Content = Safe" grade). The problem for all of us was, as you pointed out, due to the seemingly innocuous nature of e.g a Victoria Secret catalogue, most men in complete ignorance go from "seeing" the images to "viewing" them, thus crossing the line of an image being merely sexual in nature, to actually being pornographic, albeit in its softest form. From this point, the path to addiction commences as this "viewing" grows in quantity and content to get that "high" and satisfy the growing appetite of the limbic mind.

Does that tie in to what you were saying? Sorry, if I wasn't clear.